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jadasc | |
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or, I Don't Get Why You Don't Get ItThis one's been kicking around my head for a little over three years now. I posted about it a little bit on Pyramid Online around then, when  </a> Bruce Baugh was a more frequent poster, but never took the time to write it out fully. Now, as Gehenna is bringing out the World of Darkness fans in force, it becomes relevant again, as I read RPG.Net and watch lots and lots of authors express their incredulity. ( eyebeams, I'm thinking of you, but you aren't alone.) I can understand not liking the fans' position, or not wanting to support it. But not getting it? Let me try this. This Sunday, in America, millions of people are going to sit down and watch the Super Bowl, wherein the New England Patriots will face the Carolina Panthers to determine which team is the best. A couple thousand people will actually go to Houston to see them do so. People have been following the sport all season. They know the statistics of their favorite teams, and may have a favorite player or two. You'll find them wearing their team's colors, cheering at the action on the field, booing the coaching staff and the team management, and waiting with anticipation to see who wins in the end -- who makes good plays, who makes poor ones, the whole nine yards. None of this has jack to do with any game of football that they may actually play. Most of them haven't played the game since school, and those who do play will play a much more casual game than what's being displayed on the plasma-screen TV. The players on the various teams (more often than not) don't actually hail from the cities they play for, and can get traded back and forth fairly easily. The fandom, aside from the element of showing support, is separate from the game in play. So why do they do it? Because it's satisfying to choose sides, and show support, and follow the narrative of My Team Goes To The Championship, even if it's no more "your" team than the other one is. It is interesting to watch as the game plays out. And, the next day, people will talk about the decisions made, and the plays completed, and how they'd do it differently, and what'll happen next year, and who won the big game.If you write a roleplaying game, and you establish a setting, and you populate it with interesting characters, and set those characters into motion with goals and desires of their own... you will create the equivalent of the "professional league" for your game. The NPCs are the ones "who play the game for real," just like professional ballplayers do. And once you do that, you'll attract fans who will follow the narrative of "my x goes to the championship." They'll take sides, and wear the colors, and cheer for their favorites, and boo you when things don't go their way in the same way they boo'd Grady Little and George Steinbrenner when the Sox and the Yankees don't deliver. And they'll want to know what happens next, and they want to know who'll win the big game. If, at this point, you tell them, "It doesn't matter who wins the big game -- what matters is what happens in your game,"... well, that's a player point of view. It won't satisfy the fans you've attracted. Now, it may not be your desire to please the fans... but they're there. And they're vocal. And they've bought your books, and your t-shirts, and your mugs, and a hundred other things that have nothing at all to do with playing the game. You've courted them for their money; now they want you to deliver the goods. What are the goods? Fans, from what I can tell, want the perception of a coherent, consistent experience. They don't necessarily want their side to win -- though that'd be nice, on occasion -- but they want to feel like things happen for a reason, rather than editorial fiat, and that the story of the Big Game played by the same rules as the game they might play. (This is why the game fiction doesn't satisfy; it feels like... well, the difference between watching "The Natural" or "Field of Dreams" as opposed to watching an actual baseball game. It's not the same.) (Edit: The other thing that fans crave is identification. They want to choose sides. You can see it in every Quizilla test, in every licensed t-shirt. Let people pick favorites and they'll do so.)It may be "kayfabe," but it's what they want. And, again, you can decide whether or not you want to give it to them, but it's disingenuous after all this time to not understand what they're looking for.
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From: umbran |
Date: January 29th, 2004 10:08 am (UTC) |
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Re: There! Right there!
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Then pretty much everything that jadasc is talking about is being fan of the setting, rather than the game. In referring to In Nomine and WoD, he referred to fans liking characters and fans taking sides in the conflicts that occur in the setting. The fact that IN and WoD games each only have one published setting for each game does not mean that the game and setting aren't different things. And, in any event, there are also fans of the game mechanic itself, who think that d20 or D&D are the greatest thing since sliced bread, and who will drop anvils on your head if you attempt to impugn the perfection of their favored child :) Similarly, there are fans of the Storyteller mechanic, and of the Shadowrun mechanic, and of the d6 mechanic, and of the GURPS mechanics, all who react similarly when you write "This game mechanic SUXXORS".
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From: umbran |
Date: January 29th, 2004 01:12 pm (UTC) |
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Re: Crunch fandom.
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well, the thing about D&D3.X is that the setting is static from book to book.
I think that's a bit of a misconception; an easy one to come to if you don't personally follow the fiction and adventure modules of each setting. The more popular settings aren't really static.
The Forgotten Realms had it's "Time of Troubles", favored characters and gods and factions have come and gone and undergone change. IIRC, Planescape had it's mighty Modron March, and the death and rebirth of Orcus. Greyhawk has had the rebirth of Vecna as a deity. The Dragonlance setting had so much change that for a while it was represented by the SAGA system, rather than any D&D variant, and then came back to d20. I would not be surprised if the total verbiage of story told in the Forgottn Realms or Dragonlance worlds surpasses that of the WoD.
I think you are partly correct - there are "crunch fans" that have developed in the past few years. That phenomenon is probably based in the OGL and d20 licences and the relatively quick release of 3.5e, allowing for a great variety of d20 crunch out there. Most systems don't have such a selection of mechanics available to them in such a short time. That, however, doesn't eliminate the setting fans from the picture.
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From: jadasc |
Date: January 26th, 2004 11:38 am (UTC) |
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Re: Hmmm...
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So...theoretically, you could build a "game" that was really nothing but fan base. There'd be sides to pick and stories to follow, but there wouldn't have to be much of a "game" to play. It could even be a really crappy game as long as it reached in and caught your imagination.
I suppose this sort of thing happens with licensed material all the time. I'm thinking Star Wars, Star Trek and Warcraft are the big ones here, but there are certainly others.
You're not wrong in the least. What you've got in these cases is a situation where "playing the roleplaying game" is one of a number of valid ways toward the goal of "interacting in and claiming identification with the setting." "Watching the t.v. show," "wearing the t-shirt/jewelry," "attending the convention," "buying the graphic novel," "playing the videogame/play-by-post," among others.
It's just a lot harder for things to go the other way from game to licensed stuff (and even Vampire didn't cross-over the way outside stuff comes in). Still, if you could harness it...it'd be a never-ending stream of revenue. You'd keep making stuff and fans would keep buying it. You could sell pure crap and people would buy it like those sports collectable shows on TV.
You could. But there's a certain point of diminishing returns -- if the primary material descends below a certain level of satisfactory content, it no longer makes the fan base feel important or valued for taking part in it. Then, they start to desert the setting. Once could argue that that's what's happening with Star Trek now.
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There is something I have noticed over the years. Players of Roleplaying Games have one base thing in common: they want to feel like they are a part of the world they play in.
Sometimes it's as simple as going to a tabletop, or a LARP and having your characters actions make an impact on the nights events, or more obtuse, like having your favorite game do things in it's cannon that you like.
A quick tangent: Continuity. Continuity is a big factor. Life is unpredictable, but in that it is constant. People want thier worlds to be constant, if it isn't, they often get lost. If something has continuity, you can relate with other people almost like it was a shared experience. If you don't have it you get people form factions. Try being a 'Highlander' fan. Tangent done.
Some games are different. D&D is a building block game. You are given the blocks, but you are the one who builds the building. They do have pre-packaged buildings in the form of settings, like Forgotten Realms, or Ravenloft. Both of which I am a FAN of.
I agree with you though; there are PLAYERS and there are FANS. A company who has a strong fanbase should not forget those fans, lest they be doomed in the end.
Just my opinion.
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From: beloitst |
Date: January 26th, 2004 09:03 pm (UTC) |
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This was good
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Through both your original post and through the comments, you've captured my position perfectly.
I don't care how I can use Gehenna or Armegeddon in "my" game -- I didn't get interested in Vampire and the rest of the World of Darkness for it's flexibility. If I wanted that, I would play GURPS or DnD.
I care about story, and more importantly, I care about definative story. White Wolf put out literally hundreds of titles in the the Vampire line, all (supposedly) based of a single story....and then, when it comes time to end it, gives you 4 endings to choose from.
Screw that. I don't want to choose how the game ends. I want to know how the game ends. And then, when I get together with my game group, I can take or leave that ending, use it, lose it, abuse it, ignore it...but that's a choice I can make based on the end.
I have to admit -- I'm a fan. I'm a fan of the World of Darkness, which is why I was excited to hear it was ending, because the quality of product and story was declining. And because of that, I am very disappointed in the Pix Mix armegeddon. I feel, from a sotry perspective, that it's a let down. All the hype for no big secrets at the end.
Which is kind of a let down in itself -- you mean, all this time, you didn't KNOW? You just made it up as you went along? This was all just the product of people saying, "Well, maybe it would be cool if..."
And that's a let down to.
So yeah -- from the point of gamer fandom, I feel cheated. They're not telling us how the world ends. They're just writing supplements for STs who haven't bothered to write their own ending to the story.
I only bought Gehenna because I had a gift certificate and didn't need to spend my own money on it.
But I still look forward to what comes after, because I do have confidence in the Storyteller system and mechanics, and I have confidence in White Wolf's ability to put out good product.
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Heh. See, not to be one-upping but... this kind of shit is EXACTLY why I took a step back from the game... It's why I sold my books and decided not to buy anymore of them.... (I still am undecided whether we actually need a second Revised...thoughts?). Also why I do not know the fable-y stuff as well as you... At one point I was all into it and then I made this mental leap from "this part seems like they did it really shoddily" to "they're just raping me for money" to "what are they gonna do when it gets boring?" Admittedly that was a slice. Maybe 45%. Another 5% was never finding a good game till now (LARPers at SLC are SCARY!!!), 10% was time, and 10% was the culmination of every freaky person I didn't like who I met through gaming, and how many wasted braincells went to them, and all the drama (I told you my stupid Daughters of Cacaphony story, right? With the player who was completely unhinged and was my domitor IC? :P) and how, when I played, I got WAY too into it (Just trust me on that one.) So... all I'm sayin' is.... Thank you for being the ST so I don't have to read the story arc that will never finish nor buy more books nor re-learn so so so so so many dice rolls, nor any of the other stuff. I get to just be a Vampire. And it is fun. And there was much rejoicing. Except that it all still reminds me of how I got completely addicted to ST:TNG watching episodes airing over in Ireland which were several seasons behind, and coming home to the evil empire (us, unfortunately) to learn the show was being canceled in about 4 weeks. But hey. You didn't write the timeline. And you are certainly not a lazy ST. In my tiny little corner of the vamp world, life is good. :) By the way, I could have sworn I heard your tikva say "Ssh!" to her alarm clock just now, and it was very cute. ;) *back in corner now* *pause* Wait, no. *back in corner, Obfuscated* ;)
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